Transcript generated from the episode’s audio. Speaker names are identified from the context of the conversation rather than from recorded speaker data, and automatic transcription may misspell names and terminology. Please refer to the video for the authoritative version.

David Raubach: I want to thank you for joining us on today’s episode of the Cancer Project podcast. We’re really privileged to have James Williams with us. He is a long-time healthcare executive, has been involved in multiple different service lines, and he’s actually also a cancer survivor himself. So, we’re going to talk about both the experiences that he’s had in the business world and then also his personal experience and maybe how the two have intersected. And so, James, thank you so much for joining us today.

James Williams: David, thanks for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity.

David Raubach: So, I want to go back to how we met because we met in a very unique circumstance with a proton center in Chicago. So, maybe just think back to your memories of those early days and how you got connected to the proton center and just what that project was like.

James Williams: You know, you mentioned I’ve been involved in a number of different specialties over the years and I spent maybe six of those years in cancer care. And I will tell you, to this day, this dates back what, almost 15 plus years ago.

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: To this day, the proton center still holds the banner for the most rewarding position, rewarding situation I’ve ever been part of. You know, back then we were frontiers and then we were pioneers, we were trying to take a very sophisticated form of radiation and commercialize it in a way no one really ever had. And it was special. You know, the arguments of a proton versus a photon were hands-down easy to argue. But, you had to do so much education around that, to normalize this within the medical community, within the insurance community, and we got to know each other because Chicago was the second proton center that ProCure had built, and Oklahoma was the first. So, I got to go out to Oklahoma a couple times, even in the interview process. But then once things started rolling, I know that you were instrumental in helping us understand key dashboards, metrics. You’re working very closely with my financial analyst, which was your counterpart at that point. And I was always impressed with you. You always had a good knowledge base of it and could articulate it well. It’s a complicated subject, as you know.

David Raubach: Well, I didn’t think when I was a business analyst 15 years ago I’d be hosting a podcast today. So, I can’t say that that was on the radar.

James Williams: You know, it’s pretty interesting because when I saw your first podcast, I said, “That doesn’t surprise me.”

David Raubach: Yeah. I do like to try new things.

David Raubach: So, speaking of trying new things, you were coming out of a completely different service line when you joined the proton center. So, what did you — maybe describe that first phone call or just first looking into proton therapy. Like, how did it kind of come about that you made this transition to proton therapy?

James Williams: Well, I have been in the eye care world, and this is all in startups or turnarounds or taking on distressed companies. I’ve been involved in eye care a couple times, varicose vein a couple times, PTSD, occupational health, urgent cares, and many more that I’m probably forgetting. But none at that stage had the impact of cancer treatment. Many of my procedures and specialties I was involved in were many times elective. Varicose vein treatment, although it’s medically complicated and produces real symptoms, you know, it lacked the reward that I wanted to feel of changing someone’s life. And I got a call from our New York office and she said, you know, “You look to be a great candidate on this.” And I had looked through the job description and the proton therapy, cuz I love those new technologies. I like

David Raubach: Right.

James Williams: normalizing these things into standard care. And I was all over it. I said, “Man, this is my job.” And I went through a series of interviews.

David Raubach: Yeah. Yeah. They did that even for the business analyst, so I can’t even imagine what it was like for the president of the facility.

James Williams: It was crazy. It was 7:00 at night and they were ready to make me an offer. They said, “But you have to be in Kansas City tomorrow or Oklahoma City by 8:00 tomorrow morning cuz there’s one final meeting.” I’m like, “Okay.”

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: But when I got the job, I have never been more excited about a job.

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: And never been more rewarded. I mean, the stuff that we did meant something, right?

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: These, especially early on, when a lot of our patients were looking at us as somewhat of the last resort, right? Because protons weren’t well established at that stage. And when you see them heal, right? You, when you see them overcome, it’s incredible. And I have so many patient stories that I remember, but the one that always stands out was a 3-year-old child from Australia. He had a glioblastoma, which as you know is one of the worst tumors and very, very difficult to treat. And they had nothing in Australia at that time for protons. And they kind of made a — they talked to the proton therapies at that time, the proton centers at that time, and someone said, “Hey, we’re willing to do it before $150,000.”

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: And I read that out, and I was appalled. I brought my team together. I said, “I don’t care if I lose 200,000 on this. We’re treating that child.”

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: And I said, “Band together, though. We need a full support system.” They needed a free apartment to stay in, free groceries. The kids love baseball, he has brothers and sisters, we want Cub tickets, we want it all. And to this day I still keep in touch with the mother. It was just amazing.

David Raubach: Amazing.

James Williams: Yeah, and he’s doing great. No aftereffects whatsoever.

David Raubach: James, that’s one of the things that I just feel like you were really good at is we had all these challenges at the proton center, and you needed somebody that was like, “Hey, I don’t care what it’s going to take, who has to be involved, how impossible it seems to overcome this challenge. We’re all going to get in a room. We’re going to figure it out, and we’re going to do what’s best for the patient.” So, maybe just describe for us that philosophy for you — and obviously you related it to the proton center, but maybe to other areas of your life — where it’s like, “Hey, I’m going to be somebody that is going to see a challenge, and I’m not going to be afraid to tackle the impossible.”

James Williams: Right. Right. I’ll look at it from two ways, internally and then externally as regards to a team. I’m a doctor-wannabe that also loved business, right? This goes all the way back to high school. In high school I didn’t know if I’d end up in medical school or business school. Back then there’s a brand new major called healthcare management. It’s very common today, right? But back then I was the first graduating class. It was the first time you could combine business with healthcare. So from that perspective, David, I mean I have been doing what I’ve always wanted to do from the very beginning.

James Williams: Which is — I don’t think a lot of people can say that. I didn’t stumble into healthcare like a lot of my colleagues. This was by design. And I had spent time on the hospital side and these elective procedures, and although they are great business models and I learned an awful lot, you know, I wanted something that was embracing that doctor-wannabe in me, right?

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: So it was ProCure, that was it. And when I got there it was like the sky’s the limit. We are going to build a culture that is second to none. And I will guarantee you, David, we could walk into that center today and you would realize within 5 minutes it’s a different place. Now I’m taking a gamble saying that. I’m going back 15 years, but I’ve taken people there that were culture builders, and you know, I’m sure things have changed a bit, but you will always feel a difference going there.

James Williams: And I think the primary reason was I was involved in every hire. I was the last person to see them. And I’d ask them the same question. I’d say this — and this is the worst experience any patient wants to go through, but we want it to be the best experience one has gone through. And each one of us has to make a difference. What are you going to do that’s memorable and they’re going to look back and say I couldn’t have done it without you? I asked everyone that question. I asked the machinist that question. The machinist that made the mold for the laser.

David Raubach: Yep.

James Williams: And yeah, here’s a guy that’s, you know, a machinist and he — you could tell his wheels were turning — and he says, he says, “We’re going to treat a lot of prostate, right?” And I said, “Yeah, we’ll treat some prostate.” He goes, “Now they’ll be men generally in their 60s,” and I said, “Yep, yeah, more than likely.” And he says, “You know, I bet you most of them are going to be kind of impressed with the mechanical nature of things. How long are they going to be here?” And I said, “Well, you know, 40, 44 treatments, you know, so, over the course of that time.” And he goes, “So after one of those treatments, I’m going to invite them back to the mill shop to see how their mold” — I forget the term, but the

David Raubach: Yeah, the aperture and compensator.

James Williams: Yeah, yeah, how the aperture was built. And there was a waiting line. Two weeks later, there’s a waiting line of men who want to see this.

David Raubach: Yeah. That’s amazing.

James Williams: Yeah, what a great answer, right? I hired him on the spot. I was like, that’s all I need to hear. So, it was an amazing culture.

David Raubach: Yeah, and I’ll be honest, I’ve actually taken that from you, James. So, I tell that to new staff that come here is that our goal is that this is the worst thing, or for most people it’s the worst thing or one of the worst things that they’ve ever gone through, and we want people to walk out of this facility saying that was the best health care experience that I’ve ever had.

James Williams: Yeah. It’s really hard to do when somebody’s going through such a traumatic journey.

David Raubach: So, yes, I do — I remember you telling people that, and that’s something that I’ve taken with me.

James Williams: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

David Raubach: Yeah, that’s the experience that people never wanted to have, right?

James Williams: Yeah.

David Raubach: Talk about, cuz one of the things I remember especially early on was just, you know, you talked about the pediatric patient. We had a lot of pediatric patients coming through Oklahoma and Chicago. Talk about just how you approach treating pediatric patients, and I mean it was — I just remember it was that was like an emotional roller coaster seeing these kids come in, and they’re so joyful and they’re so resilient, but it’s so difficult for the parents. And how did you, James, as the leader of the facility, kind of set the tone for treating pediatric cancer?

James Williams: Yeah, I made it a point to, you know, I always parked in the front, which always angered the concierge, because I wanted to walk through the front of the building, grab a coffee, and sit down and talk to whomever was there, and I did that every day. And when it came to the pediatric patients, it was a little bit different. I wanted them to have a couple days of experience with us before I met them. And it was just like the one patient that I mentioned earlier — I had waited several days, and they were waiting for the room to get ready, and I walked down there, and I didn’t even have to introduce myself. She knew who I was. I knew who she was, and we both broke down in tears.

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: And I said, “What can I do for you?” And she says, “You’ve done it. What more can you do?”

David Raubach: Mhm.

James Williams: You know, your team has been so responsive. Um, you know, obviously we can’t create that experience with every patient, but we certainly wanted them to know — and one of the things I learned in that process, cuz she reminded me of this when her son was discharged, she says, “We had been to 13 different specialists throughout Australia and the US,” and she said, “You told me something that no one else has ever said. And that is, we are going to take great care of your son.”

David Raubach: Wow.

James Williams: I was just — why would you not say that, right? And for me it just was just kind of a blanket statement. For her it meant the world. And I always made sure we have opportunities to talk. I wouldn’t just talk with them in the lobby, but I’d bring them into one of the counseling rooms and we get to know each other. And that meant the world to me. It meant probably as much to me as I’m hoping it meant to them.

David Raubach: You were so present with the patients, and maybe for somebody, for an aspiring healthcare management student, what would be your message to just the approach or mindset for a leader or an executive? I mean, you get to a certain level where it’s pretty easy to actually not talk to the patients. Like, you actually have to be purposeful about doing that. Talk about the importance of that and why that was such an integral part of your day and your experience.

James Williams: Yeah, it’s all empathy. We’ve got to put ourselves in the position that they are in. We’ve got to feel that. We’ve got to recognize that. And we’ve got to understand, you know, what do we need to hear, see, feel to walk out feeling, “Gosh, what a great decision this was,” right? And it wasn’t just the patients, right? It — the staff was as important, if not more.

David Raubach: Mhm.

James Williams: Because my mantra with the staff was, at the end of the day, folks, the way we treat each other is the way we’re going to treat our patients. So it starts from here. I want exceptional relationships. I want exceptional service between departments. I want each handoff to be flawless. That whole value stream that we put together from start to finish. Remember that?

David Raubach: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

James Williams: We did that to understand the process, though, from beginning to end. And we timed things, we quantitated things, we built — we had the sticky notes. We had the sticky notes on the wall. It was like a whole wall full of sticky notes.

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: And it served the purpose to understand what our policies and procedures should be and our standardization should be and how we’re going to measure success. But looking at that one day, I said there’s got to be more to do with that, cuz that really was an impressive piece of work. And we said patient experience — every handoff, what are you going to do to ensure that that patient has their expectations exceeded at each handoff. So simple things like, you know, you’re holding the patient’s hand, you don’t let go until the other person holds the other.

David Raubach: Right.

James Williams: Right? It’s the warm blankets, the warm robes. It was the family counseling, which is so common now, but back then that was different.

David Raubach: Yep.

James Williams: Right? Bringing the family into this. So it was equal parts patients and employees.

David Raubach: Yeah. So on the employee side, I think one of the things that really struck at, or that kind of resonates with me looking back, is just the way that you treated everybody equally. And so I’m going to ask this question of, using a specific role — like, what is the importance of the janitor?

James Williams: Oh my god. The janitor is as important as anyone there. You know, one of the other reasons I always parked in front is I always wanted to see if everything was clean, and every now and then I’d see something on the ground and I’d bring it in, and the concierge would be, “I’ll take care of it, I got it.” And I went down to the janitor’s office and I said, “Hey, I just want you to know this is flying around, and no harm done, but I just want you to know I’m looking at this stuff every day.”

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: And this stuff matters. You know, if you walk into a hospital and you see a dirty coffee table with empty cups, how do you feel about that?

David Raubach: Right.

James Williams: And if they’re that sloppy in that manner, what does that mean about my care? Right. So, you know, this is going to sound very superficial, but it’s not. It’s something my dad told me and he always said, “Number one, dress the part and act the part.”

David Raubach: Right.

James Williams: Right? Do what you would ask your staff to do. Get rid of any ego that’s there. And, you know, we’re all peers. We’re all in this together. From a leadership perspective, though, one position will rise a little bit, but you’ve got to act the part. You’ve got to be who you’re asking them to be.

David Raubach: Well, you inspired people by making them feel important, from the lowest level up to the highest level. And you were willing to talk to anybody. You were willing to have a conversation. You’d ask them questions about — I mean, you, there was nobody that you were too far disconnected from organizationally that you said, “I won’t ask them about their weekend or about their family or their kids or whatever.” You talked to everybody.

James Williams: Yeah. And that’s

David Raubach: Go ahead. Go ahead, James.

James Williams: That’s an investment. That’s an investment. You know, and it took time. It took time away from doing things I needed to do.

David Raubach: Yep.

James Williams: But in the long run, that’s the culture that exists. And, you know, that to me is more important because it made my other decisions, and problems, and solutions to problems, so much better to identify when I knew I had this entire organization aligned.

David Raubach: Yep. So, talk about — I want to shift gears a little bit and just talk about your personal cancer journey. And I’m not going to try to pronounce the type of cancer. I’m just going to say MDS and let you tell us how it is actually pronounced. But just talk about that journey that you’ve been on for a number of years now.

James Williams: It’s been a number of years. It — the disease is called myelodysplastic syndrome. Myeloid is the bone. Dys is something’s wrong. And plasia is a combination of forces that are acting together, and not necessarily the right way. So, myelodysplastic syndrome. Think of blood production. Think about the factory of blood production. The factory that produces your blood cells lives within your bone marrow. Okay?

David Raubach: Okay.

James Williams: And it produces red for oxygen, platelets for healing, and white for fighting, right? And with myelodysplastic syndrome, the output of the factory is producing immature cells,

David Raubach: Okay.

James Williams: that are not developing appropriately. They’re not becoming red, white, or platelets. They’re mutated. And many of those cells don’t ever escape even the factory.

David Raubach: Okay.

James Williams: And so over time, um, you know, it’s — it’s a very — you can live with MDS for quite some time. Um, and how I first noticed it, this goes back to 2017. Um, how I first noticed it was I started having breathing problems.

David Raubach: Hm.

James Williams: I was looking at some office space, and I walked one flight of stairs. I was completely out of breath.

David Raubach: Wow.

James Williams: And David, I had just competed in a Chicago professional bodybuilding contest and took second place at 55.

David Raubach: Oh my gosh. Yeah, wow.

James Williams: So it wasn’t a matter of me being in bad shape.

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: And I thought something was really wrong. And then I started noticing I would get these just massive bruises on my body.

David Raubach: Huh.

James Williams: With the smallest things, right? Or something I didn’t even know hit me. And but, you know, like a very bad patient, I ignored it for quite some time.

David Raubach: Right.

James Williams: Everything we tell patients not to do, which is pay attention to your symptoms, get them checked out, be your own advocate, right?

David Raubach: Yeah, yeah.

James Williams: And, yeah, it wasn’t until I came home from a business trip on, um, in 2017, on Memorial Day weekend, on that Friday, and I came in with my suitcase and I collapsed.

David Raubach: Oh, wow.

James Williams: I couldn’t breathe. And I kind of got my senses together and I just laid down. That was on a Friday. It wasn’t until Tuesday morning I went to the ER. And I was terrified. I honestly thought it was heart related — I was thinking congestive heart failure. And I really didn’t want to go. I thought this was it. And, uh, they did the blood work and they said, “We got to get you to the hospital now. Your blood work is so off the charts.” And they took me to the hospital. I was there 2 days and they still couldn’t diagnose it. And they brought Mayo in, and Mayo, you know, took a day or so and said, “You have myelodysplastic syndrome, or MDS.” And it was a very unusual case. The average MDS patient is in their almost 80s.

David Raubach: Okay.

James Williams: And they have a primary form of cancer, right? This becomes secondary then, okay? I didn’t have that. But then there’s environmental factors that come into play. Gasoline, oil, dirt. I worked at a car shop, you know, through grade school and high school changing oil. My hands would get oily. How do you get the oil off your hands? Well, pour gasoline on it. It’s the only thing that cuts it, right?

David Raubach: Okay.

James Williams: So I kind of fit some of that criteria, but that still doesn’t — they still can’t, they still won’t say it’s that. But what we’re learning now too is that there’s also some genetic play to it as well.

David Raubach: Okay.

James Williams: So I was diagnosed, very unhealthy, stayed there for about a week, and then started chemo for 6 months.

David Raubach: Wow. This is up at Mayo?

James Williams: No, this was at Northwestern in Chicago.

David Raubach: Got it.

James Williams: Yeah, they had a partnership with Mayo. They still — they have a partnership with Mayo. And the first 6 months of chemo was just to get stabilized. So all those bad cells are out of me and the bone marrow is not producing any more of those bad things. And getting me to a point of strength where I could go in for a stem cell transplant. And, November 9th, November 9th, 2018, that too — I had my transplant. My oldest son was the donor. I was admitted. I — you know, being in health care and being in cancer care, I thought I knew a lot, but I didn’t know there was inpatient chemo.

David Raubach: Okay.

James Williams: And it’s inpatient because they take you this close to death.

David Raubach: Wow.

James Williams: They are wiping out your entire immune system because they’re going to bring in my son’s. And my body’s going to do everything to fight like hell to, you know, to not let my son’s win.

David Raubach: Right.

James Williams: So, after 9 days of chemo, 10th day I was feeling good, 11th day I kind of fell off the edge. By 12, I was in there for 34 days after that.

David Raubach: Oh my gosh.

James Williams: I remember very little. I had spiked a temperature of 104.7.

David Raubach: Oh my —

James Williams: The only reason I knew that is I woke up one morning and I said, “I thought I heard someone say 104.7.” She goes, “You’re right. You were on an ice bed all night long.”

David Raubach: Oh my gosh.

James Williams: I had no idea. So, the transplant went okay, went well. But I went in with, depending on what research you read and what you believe, a 43% chance of getting out alive.

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: And if you do, chances are you’re going to have eye issues, you’re going to be blind, you’re going to be walking with a cane, you’re going to have horrible skin reaction based on host versus graft —

David Raubach: Right.

James Williams: — that battle. And lung issues. And knock on wood, I am the absolute exception. Textbook exception of what could go right.

David Raubach: Yeah. Wow.

James Williams: So, it’s been fascinating, and you know, I still see so many physicians, so many doctors. When the slightest count goes the slightest bit off, it’s just a battery of tests to, you know, make sure nothing’s sliding.

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: Which is kind of a nuisance, but, you know, they’re on top of it.

David Raubach: Yeah, man, that is an incredible journey. So, when you got diagnosed and they first laid out the treatment regimen, was there a hope that maybe the chemotherapy would work and you wouldn’t have to do the stem cell transplant, or was it kind of everything was working towards this — it was like, “Hey, we’re headed towards the stem cell transplant and that’s going to be really cool.”

James Williams: Yeah, we’re headed to it, where the transplant’s going to happen. We just need to get you strong enough,

David Raubach: Okay.

James Williams: you know, to handle that.

David Raubach: So, I — I can’t even imagine what the conversation was like with your son. So, what — I mean, describe that. I mean, this is a hard procedure for him. Obviously it’s life or death for you. I mean, how did you even navigate that conversation?

James Williams: You know, it was a kind of a very difficult night. My oldest son was here going to nursing school. My daughter was here going to design school. My other son, youngest son, he was up in Minnesota at school, and my kids here knew what was going on, but my youngest son was a little bit behind. So, I called them up, family call. And I said, “Reed, I said, you know, we’ve got — I’ve got MDS, as you know, and we’ll be going in for a transplant, and there’s some risk of that.” And, you know, there’s some side effects of that that can be, you know, life-sustaining. And he goes, “Is this really serious?” I said, “Yeah. It’s very serious. And, you know, I need to get a bone marrow transplant, which is high risk as it is.” And he goes, “Well, who donates that?” I said, “Well, you know, either you or Chad will.” And Chad — we’d already kind of decided on Chad only cuz he lived right there, and there’s a lot of trips to the hospital — but he goes, “I want to do it.”

David Raubach: Yeah. Wow.

James Williams: I said, “Well, I, you know, thank you, but, you know, you’d have to be here for months, and that’s just can’t happen.” But I just — I’ll never forget, he goes, “Well, is this really serious?”

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: I said, “Yeah, Reed, it’s serious.” And that’s all I could say.

David Raubach: Right.

James Williams: And I had him — I allowed him to interpret what that meant, because

David Raubach: Right.

James Williams: you know, you didn’t want to get into those details.

David Raubach: And how old was he at the time?

James Williams: He was a — he was a junior in college.

David Raubach: Oh, wow.

James Williams: So, yeah, early 20s.

David Raubach: Yeah. Man.

David Raubach: What is — and so, I’m not that familiar with how a stem cell transplant actually works. So, what is the actual procedure itself entail?

James Williams: It’s very anticlimactic. So, I’ve had over 100 transfusions because I needed to replenish red or white or platelets. And, um, it’s no different than getting a transfusion.

David Raubach: Oh, interesting.

James Williams: They came in with this dry ice box and pulled out this bag, and it had like 15 million stem cells from Chad. And they asked if I wanted a clergy person, and I’m not overly spiritual, and I said, “I’m not overly spiritual, but I would sure like to talk to someone,” you know. And they said, “We have just the right person,” and it was earth-moving for me, just hearing her words. I don’t even remember her words, but I just remember looking around at my wife and Chad and my daughter, and we were just, like, you know, we felt so much comfort going into this.

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: And then the transfusion started to occur, and it was no different than getting a transfusion.

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: But, yeah, it’s the —

David Raubach: So it’s not the procedure itself that necessarily is really rigorous. It’s what your body does after the fact.

James Williams: It’s the before and after. So you’ve got to — get you to accept those cells, you have to wipe out your entire immune system so my immune system doesn’t attack Chad.

David Raubach: Okay.

James Williams: Right? All right. And so to get that low, I mean, you were just —

David Raubach: Oh, wow.

James Williams: I lost 50 lb — in 36 days. I had to learn to walk again.

David Raubach: Yeah. Oh my gosh.

James Williams: Um, so, you know, they get you this close to death so your body will be able to accept these things.

David Raubach: Yeah. How has your perspective on life changed going through something like that? I mean, you said you talked to the person, the clergy, there at the hospital, and then what’s kind of the last 9 years been like just navigating life after going through such an obvious life and death experience?

James Williams: You know, I’m going to give you an answer that you may not expect. But people have asked me that question time and time again. And I actually — there’s a little bit of angst when I hear that question. Because, um, and I don’t mean this personally, David, but people say, “Oh, you just must love your family so much more and appreciate every moment with them.” And, you know, I’m like, I already love them as much as I could before this. I can’t love them any more than this.

David Raubach: Right.

James Williams: You know, this has been nothing but a major just pain and nuisance. You know, I’m not learning anything from this.

David Raubach: Right. Right.

James Williams: Yeah, you know, this — there’s nothing good about this.

David Raubach: Right.

James Williams: And so that was always my response. But it was very interesting. Fast forward 8 years later, in Boston last May. Um, one of the big pharmaceutical companies had been at one of my presentations through the MDS Foundation. And she said, um, “We would love to have you speak to our senior management team and then all of our employees at a town hall.” I said, “Interesting.” I said, “What’s the message?” Right? And they said, “Well, they’ve been working on an MDS drug for quite some time. They take a couple steps forward and at least three to four back.”

David Raubach: Hm.

James Williams: “And they’re frustrated. They’re burned out. They don’t see the tunnel, let alone the light at the end right now. And they need to see that a patient can get through this.”

David Raubach: Oh, wow.

James Williams: And you — and I was like, “Oh my god, I’m totally up for that.” And we had about 250 people as senior management team from all over the world, and then for presentation number one. Presentation number two was all employees, which was a couple thousand, and that was zoomed in mostly, but a huge, you know, probably 800 in this auditorium.

James Williams: And they had really prepped me. They gave me a professional writer. They had a green room. They gave me all this testing, uh, rehearsing. And they gave me all these place cards for notes, and I just remember walking out on stage, and I looked at the notes and I just set them down. And I was being interviewed live, right? And I had never spoken more from the heart than I had, um, in that hour. And I got emotional. The audience got emotional. Um, it was absolutely earth-moving for me. And I got all these applause and hugs at the end, and I was in tears. I mean, it just hit me hard. And I didn’t know why.

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: And I called my wife right away, and I’m like, I said, “Peggy, I said, I said this is just the most incredible experience I’ve ever been through. And I just feel like this huge weight is off of me.”

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: And I don’t know why.

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: And later on I thought about it for the next couple hours, and I realized — and this sounds far-reaching, David, but it’s not, right? It’s — I realized that, you know, going back to your comment, how’s this change your life? Well, it did change my life.

David Raubach: Mhm.

James Williams: Because I was able — if I was able to give one of those scientists or researchers just a little added energy to go an extra mile to find a cure for this dreaded disease, and my experience allowed that to happen —

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: — that’s why I got MDS.

David Raubach: That’s amazing. So it’s almost like you’re — there was a little bit of gratitude for the work that they were doing, but there’s also you realizing that you’ve now — you’re like at this crossroads of all the people that are going to come after you that are going to be diagnosed with this really difficult disease, and maybe because of your message and your journey, their path to healing might be a little bit better.

James Williams: I hope it is. Yeah. I hope — I hope that’s what happened.

David Raubach: That’s amazing. Like, I mean, that’s — that is life-changing. So it’s almost like it’s not so much the question is how did your life change — it’s how does your life changing other people’s lives.

James Williams: Exactly. And that’s where it all came together. It took 8 years to figure that out.

David Raubach: Yeah, that’s amazing. That’s incredible. And, so, I talk about the MDS Foundation because you’ve been very active with them, and I want to, like, stage this question by saying a lot of people go through cancer and then they say, “I don’t want to be involved anymore. I don’t want to think about it. That part of my life is gone.” But if you’re working with a foundation like the MDS Foundation, you’re really, like, leaning into the fact that you had this journey. So talk about why you work with the foundation and just the purpose of and mission behind what they’re doing.

James Williams: Yeah. I — that was part of the — that’s — that’s part of this overwhelming sense of give back.

David Raubach: Mhm.

James Williams: Right? Um, part of my recovery process, it wasn’t always high, right? And it wasn’t a linear climb up. Um, there are some downs in there. And the downs were just a serious case of survivor guilt.

David Raubach: Mhm.

James Williams: You know, all of our patients — we got to know each other. And one day, Bob’s not there. Where’s Bob? Bob passed. All right? Or Bob, you know, now Greg comes in with a blind stick.

David Raubach: Mhm.

James Williams: And that — that really hits hard. And especially as I came out, you know, virtually, you know, free of any issues, you know, certainly of their magnitude. And I felt very guilty about that. And, um, I said, you know, I got to find a way to apply that anxiety to help others. And I saw that the MDS Foundation was doing a 5K in Chicago. And my wife and I went to it, and they had a board member there, and I went up and introduced myself, and, uh, I said this, and I said, um, I said, I don’t know what your needs are, or if there’s anything I can help you with, but, you know, I’m sure you’ve got a foundation committee that raises dollars, I’d be happy to be part of that. Um, and if there is, you know, the possibility of even going further to help influence the organization more, you know, I would be welcome to that as well. And I immediately started on the foundation committee. And then, just 2 years ago, I became the first non-physician, non-research, and non-researcher member of the board.

David Raubach: Okay. Wow.

James Williams: And yeah, and you know, it’s a small group because it’s a small disease state, right? It’s — but because it’s small, we have to represent essentially the world. So, we’ve got 40 countries that participate in this committee. Um, at the highest level, we bring together researchers, pharma, academia, patients, experts, teachers, instructors. We bring that whole together to create a catalyst of advancement. And the MDS Foundation’s principal role is to bring that patient voice into it.

David Raubach: Okay.

James Williams: Um, and that’s at the global, high level. At the ground zero level, it’s education.

David Raubach: Mhm.

James Williams: Um, and it’s so needed. Um, that was probably the most frustrating thing for me, especially coming from health care, is that first month, um, not really knowing what this was, what MDS was. And everything I read, I could read one article that would contradict the next.

David Raubach: Oh, right. Yeah.

James Williams: And it was just this cycle. And, um, I finally found the MDS Foundation, and their education material is superb. And they really made an impact, um, and on my family as well, right? Um, so that’s how I got involved in it. Um, I love what we’re doing. We’re, you know, we’re a small fish in a very big pond, and, you know, and but, you know, we’re — and it’s only affects somewhere between 20 and 30,000 patients a year.

David Raubach: Okay. I was going to ask that, yeah.

James Williams: Yeah, so that’s — I mean, that’s a drop in the bucket when you think of the big world of cancer, right? It — it truly is, and that makes it hard. Right. It — you know, cuz we’re competing against much, much larger nonprofits. Um, so our message — we really have to be creative in the way we reach out, in the way we partner, in the way we ultimately ask. You know, it’s a nonprofit. We survive on, you know, on donations and grants and things of that sort.

David Raubach: Yeah. So how has going through cancer, or going through — I mean, I’ll just even say, broadly speaking, a serious disease — changed your perspective within the business realm? Because you were always somebody who was very kind of naturally empathetic and related to the patients and talked to the patients and did just a great job interacting with them. But are there things that maybe — the way that you approach business now is a little bit different, having gone through this journey?

James Williams: Um, it’s — it’s interesting, and I don’t know how much of this is based on MDS and where I’m at within my career, which is in this very semi-retirement mode that probably seems to get more and more non-retirement down the road. But, um, you know, I — I uh — I really, and it’s just a natural, it’s something I’ve always enjoyed doing, and maybe I’m enjoying it more, but that’s really — I’ve had — I’ve been very lucky. I’ve had great mentors in my life.

David Raubach: Mhm.

James Williams: And to the extent that I can return that favor back, I will always do that. I don’t know if MDS did that for me, because, you know, as you know, I kind of stand on the fact that I’m no different. I’m the same guy.

David Raubach: Right. Right.

James Williams: You know, pre and post, but, um — yeah, I — I don’t think it’s changed that much.

David Raubach: Yeah. I could — I mean, I could definitely see that, cuz again, I think that you — to me, you always embodied what you’d want in a leader at a facility where you’re treating patients that are going through cancer. Um, so just to kind of tie a ribbon on everything today, what is your message to the next generation? Cuz you were a great mentor to me, but for people that are kind of entering their careers in health care, health care management, especially if they’re entering a field where you’re kind of dealing with patients that are going through something life and death. What’s — what’s advice that you’re giving to the next generation about how to be successful in business or take the right approach to managing people?

James Williams: Yeah, I — you know, there’s a line that somewhere along the line I coined, and it’s been somewhat of my mantra. And it applies equally to life in general or business in general, but it’s kind of a tongue twister — we are much stronger than we ever thought we could be when we need to be stronger than we ever have been.

David Raubach: Mhm. Okay?

James Williams: And I look at that — that has application in everything that we do. And, you know, that resiliency, right? That bounce back. That, okay, I missed it, and my analysis was off, I’m going back and I’m going to fix it.

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: I learned from that. You know, don’t let those small things — you know — take you away from the big picture.

David Raubach: Right.

James Williams: Um, you know, and I look back — I look back at some of the things that kept me going. And you know, it was transparency, which applies in MDS as well as in business. My favorite — Maddox said, “Hey, you’re in for the fight of your life. Buckle up, buddy. You’re going to do what I say, and you’re going to do it on time, and you’re not going to give me any flak. This is what you have to do.” And, you know, she was a Russian, you know, tough woman, and I love her to death, you know. I can use those same principles in life.

James Williams: So, you’re circling around something here. The — maybe, you know, as you asked me earlier, what did you learn? Maybe I’m learning that these things that got me through MDS can be applied to life in general.

David Raubach: Right.

James Williams: You know, and the ability to stay positive — it is — is interesting to me because you can be positive but not necessarily happy.

David Raubach: Right. Right.

James Williams: And on those days, if all you can say to be positive is tomorrow’s going to be better, that’s a positive attitude right there. And, you know, the other thing is that they got me through it. Every single day, and I can see this in business, too. Every day I’ve got to do something a little bit better than I did before.

David Raubach: Mhm.

James Williams: That started with sitting up in bed

David Raubach: Yep.

James Williams: for 2 minutes, and then I couldn’t take it. All right, I had to lay down. Next day, 3 minutes. Next day, 5 minutes. Next day, I sit on the edge of the bed, and then finally in a chair. Then I start to mobilize, you know, it’s just one thing after another.

David Raubach: Well, and you’re setting those goals and finding those little victories along the way and celebrating those little victories, and kind of letting those, like, build on each other, too.

James Williams: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I want to share just a short story here, cuz it was always fascinating to me and it had such an impact on me. It is when I finally realized this was cancer. That was a strange thing to hear, cuz I didn’t understand it was a cancer until about 2 months into it. And I asked the doctor — I — this was at the Warrenville campus, right?

David Raubach: Yeah. Yeah, where the proton center is, right?

James Williams: People are working, and, you know, working on me — some of them I hired. And one of them, Maddox, said, “Listen, you have got to come in with a winning attitude because these — this staff here will fight to the bitter end for you. And the moment you show that you have any weakness or you start to give up, you risk them doing the same thing.”

David Raubach: Mhm.

James Williams: And he looked at me, and he’s looking at my clothing. He says, “I want you to dress like that every time you come in.” I had a pair of khakis, my blue button-down shirt, and some Italian loafers. He goes, “Don’t ever come in here with, you know, your flannel jammies and a hoodie. I don’t want to see that.”

David Raubach: Yep.

James Williams: “You need to dress for success on this.”

David Raubach: Which is amazing because that’s what your dad said.

James Williams: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And I did that. I did that. I mean, I always — I just — I never wanted to let them see me weak. Even at my weakest moments. But it was all helping up here, right? It’s all helping — such a mental component to what you were going through.

David Raubach: Yeah. That’s amazing. I love that because when you say dress for success, like the natural application to that is in the work setting, but then there’s also other areas of life, and I — I think that that’s something to tell our patients here at the proton center, which is, like you said, like, project positivity, project victory, project getting through this, project being that warrior that we need you to be to get through this. And, there, like you said, there’s going to be some really low days. There’s going to be some days where you can barely even sit up in bed. Um, but together as a team, we’re going to get through this, but we need you to maintain that positive image and that positive attitude.

James Williams: You do. It’s — it’s so much attitude. You have to be your own beacon. You have to be. You just have to be. Science is going to change, medicine’s going to evolve, but you will always be the greatest factor to your health, to your success. So be your own beacon. Don’t borrow someone else’s. You know, I refused help. You know, I drove to the proton center a couple times when I probably shouldn’t have.

David Raubach: Yeah.

James Williams: But I didn’t — I didn’t want anyone’s help.

David Raubach: That’s amazing. That’s — uh, that — what a great — what a great life lesson. I feel inspired now. I feel like I’m at the drug company presentation and just listening, and I think they deserve a round of applause. Well, thank you so much for agreeing to talk, James. I am so glad that we’ve stayed in touch over the years. I think we first met about 15 years ago now. And I’m really glad that we’ve stayed in touch and that we got this opportunity to catch back up, and thank you so much for everything that you’ve shared today.

James Williams: Yeah, it’s — it’s been my pleasure, David, and, uh, very happy to do it. And I admire what you’re doing. I’m glad you’re still in it on the proton side. I keep track, and it’s always great to see the advancements that you guys are doing, and it’s a great field. I miss it, quite frankly.

David Raubach: Yeah. Well, I learned a lot from you, and I’m very grateful for everything that I’ve learned from you, and now getting the privilege to be able to apply that. So, thank you for —

James Williams: Fantastic.

David Raubach: — who you are and what you’ve done.

James Williams: Thank you so much. It means a lot to me.

David Raubach: This podcast is made possible by the Oklahoma Proton Center, a state-of-the-art cancer center where precision in treatment meets real compassion and care. We’re grateful for their support and for you for spending this time with us. If you’d like to learn more about the Oklahoma Proton Center, you can visit their website at the link below. And if something you heard today resonated, we’d love for you to stick with us. You can subscribe to the podcast and follow along on our socials linked below for more conversations like this, honest stories, thoughtful perspectives, and the kind of support people don’t always know where to find, but do truly need. At the end of the day, this podcast isn’t just about cancer. It’s about what it means to be human inside of it and how we keep living, connecting, and moving forward together. We hope you leave each episode feeling a little bit more informed, a little bit more supported, and a lot less alone.